Rohan Martin is an embedded and mobile software engineer who has worked on some of the raddest tech in the sports we love. Alongside his passion for coaching and extreme sports, he is also the CTO of BrakeAce, the world's first brake sensor and app combo for mountain bikers. Today Rohan shares his insights from behind the curtain, and we begin the discussion of how the world of sports tech is faring amongst the other tech around us. There's room for improvement, and it starts here.
Follow Rohan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sweaty_techie/
____
Visit PerformanceAdvantagePodcast.com to learn how to make the most of your data and become a faster athlete and better coach, including our two newest courses: Fundamentals of Running with a Power Meter and Fundamentals of Mountain Biking with a Power Meter
https://link.performanceadvantagepodcast.com/course
Get the whole MASTERCLASS: Using Sports Science to Train More Effectively: https://link.performanceadvantagepodcast.com/course
All PAP Courses are worth CEUs for USAT coaches
____
PAP YouTube - we have hundreds of videos: https://link.performanceadvantagepodcast.com/youtube
Follow Dr Matt on Instagram: https://link.mtbphd.com/instagram
Follow Dr Will on Instagram: https://link.drwillo.com/instagram
____
TRANSCRIPT
00:00.00
Rohan
So stuff. But yeah, that's all good I could I could talk about this forever and I'd probably do a little too much normally today you guys are the right guys to talk to at least.
00:14.67
Matt
All right? Ron welcome to performance vantage podcast.
00:19.00
Rohan
Thanks.
00:21.28
drwill
All right? So Matt said your handle is sweaty ticky. What is that about those 2 things don't go together unless you're like gaming without ear conditioning.
00:27.82
Rohan
Ah, ah, that's because you need something. Ah.
00:36.42
Matt
I'm just thinking about how I sweated all over my my bike yesterday in my wahoo and I got sweat all over my phone because I was watching Youtube on the trainer. So that's what I'm envisioning actually right now.
00:44.69
Rohan
Yeah, oh I'm envisioning myself sitting at the coffee shop for 5 hours on the laptop the other day after my ride thinking I should probably go home for a shower but getting too much done to actually do that. Ah, but yeah, that's pretty much it that facts it. My life is sports and tech and so sweaty techie is is me. It's not the best image but it's the best way to subize how I live my life.
01:14.98
drwill
It's real.
01:17.40
Matt
So how did had you get into all this stuff into tech.
01:21.26
Rohan
Oh how did I get into this bit of luck bit of being in the right place at the right time probably a whole lot of putting myself into places that made me have some opportunities so my background is. I've got a degree in software engineering part of the reason I did that is I like building things like making new stuff and wanted the opportunity to go and live and work somewhere else around the world. So I'm from perth western australia is about as isolated as you can get for a capital city. Always had these intentions of going somewhere else experiencing new things. Our software seemed the right way to do that and started working with mobile originally worked for Motorola back in the days of competing with the first iphone then they shut down didn't do so well.
02:12.69
drwill
Coal.
02:17.41
Rohan
I'd ended up doing a bit of other things before I went to Canada on a working holiday visa thinking I'd enjoyed the mountains and ended up finding a job full-time engineering for dinosstream innovations. It turns out, they'd been bought a couple of years earlier by Garmin.
02:33.92
drwill
Um, ah.
02:35.81
Rohan
They are now in Garmin canada and so I just jumped straight in to working on wireless technology. So for their ant wireless team. What I thought was going to be a you know fun year or so in the canadian rockies and ended up being 4 years working for them getting involved in so not just directly Garmin products more support of other people using ant and ant plus are connecting to mobile phones. So yeah, an example of just getting lucky but also willing to move to Canada and take a random job. Outside of the city. So.
03:15.28
Matt
I guess I wouldn't have happened in Perth then would it.
03:17.94
Rohan
Ah, there is surprising some things happening behind closed doors here. They're really hard to find and usually part of bigger projects elsewhere. But yeah Perth but has stuff happening.
03:32.59
drwill
They' sort I've found I um I like how do these people find these jobs you know like I have um sports scientists I met it. Um, there were similar position to me. You know ph d candidates or like honors masters people that have followed for the last. Halfde or so and then they have these like amazing jobs and like high performance or this new startup or something like where did you where did you find these you know it's like you just I'm going on holiday like oh I worked for Garmin now. Yeah.
04:04.56
Rohan
So yeah, ah it's a lot of once you get to know someone know the right people this Garmin job was basically the only thing I've ever done that was send in a job application with no idea the rest of the time. It's no someone have some connection get involved.
04:16.49
drwill
Yeah.
04:23.95
Rohan
Some way and so that's a big part of so I eventually ended up getting into doing more consulting type work and really that just that wasn't a big risk that was I knew a lot of people people kept asking questions Anyway. So it just naturally became but I started doing things. Or independently.
04:41.94
drwill
So is that when you ah was there after the four years you'd been at Garmin Canada
04:46.30
Rohan
Yes, so that was another case of just getting pretty lucky I told them hey okay I've been here four years before it gets to 5 I've decided I'm not going to stay forever I should leave I'm going to head back to Australia and my boss is like no. Don't quit take a laptop. We'll find some work for you and so that just got me started working remotely and those first few months slowly traveling back home making the most of a bit of freedom and flexibility started to set the precedent for the next few years ah but I was the only the technical person in the company working remotely so I kept sort of changing through a bit of what I was doing. Um how I'd fit into the team. So I had been running the team and so that very much changed things. Ah but I've been trying to. Increase adoption of amplus into mobile phones. So I was working directly with a lot of external companies and so I became basically the guy doing support to get more people involved. For example I just ah, Strava. Is a big one so identifying if you wanted to have wireless connectivity to amp plus devices in mobile strava is getting bigger and bigger. So I reached out to them saying hey or 2013 but then thirteen fourteen yeah
06:09.90
drwill
So when was this where like year were we told me oh yeah, yeah.
06:17.83
Matt
Strabo is just getting star I guess so it had been around for a bit. Yeah Wow you were an early adopter.
06:19.57
drwill
Now that was stole and.
06:21.40
Rohan
Yeah, like I started using them 2010 or 11 and things. Yeah, that's I owe so many apps that because I was the app guy I was constantly on the lookout for apps and so I met my ride ride to Gps there was a Google. My maps or actually there's lots of these apps that's like yep I just had you know all of them installed and so just for work purposes. However, Strava was one that I very quickly got hooked on for good or for bad I just I did lose my original tracks though. I was signed up with a work account and I don't have that email anymore. So if you're at Strava and you can tell me I want to see how poor was my writing back then? yeah I'm I'm sure I could yeah I'm in there somewhere.
07:00.63
Matt
Oh no, Ah, that's the will would be destroyed. You could probably go back and find that guy you know like search him.
07:00.94
drwill
Ah, no.
07:16.83
drwill
Oh man I went back through my training peaks account in like around 2000 and I don't know 11 I think I got my first Gps watch and I just recorded everything in run mode.
07:17.38
Matt
But.
07:32.73
drwill
And even just the like the tags that would come that were pushed through it was all manual upload and it's just all the data is just ridiculous like it's just it's like no elevation data. It's like it's like just ah, a Gps like pace track like.
07:49.39
Rohan
Yeah, absolutely that that data geek thing of must record everything. It's going to be useful one day until you look back at it and there's no context like yeah.
07:50.16
drwill
And just like where I went and and how fast I ran and that they're like that's it and like man.
07:59.50
drwill
Yeah, and yeah, like I didn't comment to it I can have a lot was I doing intervals or have to try and remember a session from I was probably I know I wasn't doing it I was just going hard the whole time. Um, but.
08:08.70
Matt
Probably you probably were.
08:08.41
Rohan
Yeah, yeah.
08:19.10
drwill
Yeah, yeah, ah yeah, so striver did you get them? Did you get them on Ant plus.
08:20.20
Rohan
Yeah I did so that was an interesting one so they were using an external library for their connectivity at that point. So this is they were built on top of the wahoo library. Interface which is how they had Iphone and Ios and so wahoo back in the day their very first product was a dongle for iphones to let you connect to m plus sensors.
08:47.22
drwill
Yes, I was gonna ask you about this because I had the first um kicker wahoo kicker so I got one of those like as soon as they came out and I used it to control training when I was doing my my research collecting. Um, participant data and I had to control their training I was like these things are amazing and then yeah I was like as over those years I was collecting the data news and the kickers it was like you had to have this external dongle and then I saw in the forums that actually no ant plus was supported inside the phone but you had to like. Unlock it or use ah as an apk with Android or something as so you can tell fill us in fill the gaps there.
09:26.77
Rohan
Yeah, also that is exactly the work I did getting ant plus into Android that was sort of again being in a bit of luck so bluetooth low energy. The future of wireless. Was this big planned announced technology switching from the the classic bluetooth used a lot of power. Yes, it was able to stream all of your your audio high high bandwidth usage and there's Bluetooth low energy. Totally different technology. And actually almost the same as amplus and so someone at ant and realized that well there's all of these chips being output by the radio silicon manufacturers and they've got this space for bluetooth low energy. Can we just put. Ant on there and so ampplus managed to sort of sneak on to phones because there was all of these chips in there waiting for bluetooth low energy and so it wasn't advertised by a lot of phones and it needed.
10:32.82
drwill
Ah.
10:41.19
Rohan
The actual operating system. So your Android system needs to be updated and so that was the piece I did so make some changes try and convince different manufacturers potentially Google to enable that and so originally. 2000 and let's see in the 2010 tour de frances. There was a bunch of writers having a htc phone under their saddle that allowed live streaming of their data just because it was an off-the-shelf phone that had one of these trips that we could put. And plus into and that was the first sort of like real life proof of concept and it's definitely It's grown so now things aren't done that way but just that proof of hey people are interested in seeing live data. We can do that if we've got a phone that directly connects. And so then from there sort of trying to push in different ways. Samsung is the big one that ended up adopting and plus in most of their top end phones but not as super advertised feature so they did integrate it into s health.
11:48.59
Matt
Yeah I was just ah I was wondering that I was like do we know that our phones have am plus in there I didn't actually know and right.
11:57.70
Rohan
Yeah, very few very few do that's ah, it's because I left didn't finish that project. Oh yeah, so yeah, it's one of those things that you can if you really wanted to.
12:06.17
Matt
Ah, like forget it.
12:15.58
Rohan
You can plan to have your phone find the ones that do support it but they have sort of gone a different route for the and and plus side of things Anyway, bluetooth low energy is now there that is the the standard approach you take to getting something to a phone.
12:32.71
drwill
And what's better.
12:35.98
Rohan
Ah, different so similar sort of battery life usages but very different so from a developer standpoint There's definitely yeah, the available things you can implement is different. However, it's all about the ecosystem. What are you trying to connect to. So if you're a if you're a Garmin wahoo whoever making a head unit. You need to have amplus just because there are so many sensors out there that people have from before there was be a lead that work and it's broadcast. So you can connect to you know you have zwift on your Apple Tv and for years you then couldn't connect your bluetooth also to your Garland at the same time because it was only one single to single connection. 1 point to point single connection. And so for them to allow that they've had to add the ability to have a second connection whereas amplus right from the beginning just broadcasts to anyone that's listening so from a consumer point of view. The best is the one that works with whatever else, you've already got there isn't really that much difference once you've got it.
13:43.66
drwill
Right.
13:49.67
Rohan
You can make them both work. You just can't make it work if you've got something that doesn't integrate with the previous bits. You've got and so that's been sort of so a long time. Garmin was very much sticking to and plus it just worked and then.
13:56.58
drwill
Yes.
14:09.10
Rohan
Other companies the other way not adopting amplus so like suntu.
14:11.56
Matt
That would have been a bit of competition between the companies wouldn't it like ah now we're not going to do that because you guys do that.
14:18.13
Rohan
Ah, yes, and no I think a lot of it is also those existing products so there's a lot the sensors sell significant number more than you know the head units and watches and so if you're someone who's got 3 bikes you might have.
14:21.88
Matt
Here.
14:37.93
Rohan
Ah, just simple cadence speed distance on a couple of those you know, maybe power meter but you only have one head unit that you use across all of them. So there's a lot of sales there in the additional sensors and so if you create something new. You want it to keep working with your old stuff that people have so that they're tied in ah Apple approach make everything that just works. You thought you've got then once someone gets in you've got them.
15:08.27
Matt
I was just thinking about actually ah the bikes I have and the sensors I have and then because obviously all my bikes have power meter and then I only had the 1 hen unit and the one head unit I had for some reason it would only connect to 1 power meter at a time and then I'd have to search and find it. But now I have one of those newer wahoos. And it remembers all my power meters which is great because I just like get that bike and I go for a ride and it knows which power meters on and it reads my power that was like 1 of the greatest things ever has ah just made my life so much easier.
15:40.50
Rohan
Yeah, so I did work on the original element from wahoo and that was one of those big discussions how to make pairing to sensors easier and so that had been something I've been dealing with for a long time is sort of the technical how it works. But that user interaction. So the traditional approach before that had been the Garmin did bike profiles you would choose which bike you had and it would connect to the sensors you had assigned to that and then get. But yeah, exactly no read. It was an extra step and like why would you bother.
16:08.74
drwill
Um, but no one ever used that? No one used that? Yeah yeah, um.
16:10.32
Matt
I Didn't use it. Ah yeah.
16:18.80
Rohan
And the extra step to set up was a long process and then every time you went for a ride you couldn't just press the button and so yeah, you would just set it up how you wanted it and just expect it to work whereas Waho was well. You set it up and just keep adding sensors and if you've got those sensors and at some point you use them. And that that is a big sort of transition in the way sports tech sort of becomes more mainstream this ability of it just works. There was a long time where every digital product you used required a little bit of technical knowledge and troubleshooting. Either in the setup or just in making it work properly.
17:01.16
drwill
It's still you know it's still there like as you know a coach works with a lot of athletes across a lot of different devices I should be can you get Accredited Garmin like support person because.
17:11.82
Rohan
Ah, yeah, yeah, until the new Garmin comes out and it's got 15 new features and you got to figure out all of them.
17:14.70
Matt
Do you want that like people be hitting you up like how do I sit on my goman.
17:17.70
drwill
Yeah, yeah, the phoenix 7 um, for running any um, running guy. But ah yeah, it's still not There's still so many hoops and loops and. So being massive into running power like the stride and it's just this initially man that thing was the biggest hurdle you guys? Um, like we'll fight met with breakcase I don't know how you're setting that up but with stride I had to. Was a heart rate strap like not the foot pod and then I had to set it up as a cadence sensor and it would read. Ah this was the other thing that was going back through training peaks my cadence is all like 350 rpm which is actually my power um from because I was trying to yeah so I was trying to find my power stuff. But.
18:07.80
Matt
Ah, ah.
18:13.79
drwill
Yeah, like so that's such a huge hurdle and then you could or you could run in bike mode so because only Garmin would only allow power meters in bike mode and.
18:24.82
Rohan
And.
18:25.90
Matt
That's funny because we've been talking about this actually for break case, It's like Okay, how do we get it on a head unit right? Is it going to be Rpms or whatever.
18:32.12
Rohan
And yeah, and yet there's definitely been multiple companies that have had to do that over the last decade and like we've got something new and cooled and we've got it. How do we get it to other people and get them using it. So yeah, stryde is 1 thing and it's interesting because it's's always tend to be cadence.
18:45.12
drwill
So what? yeah.
18:51.74
Rohan
Was like there's this decision that no one cares enough about cadence for it to be the thing you have to keep because ah muscle Oxygen is yeah it works.
18:53.32
drwill
Yeah, but also it's it's kind of on there by default as well. Like most people like with running I mean with cycling you might have it if you've got like 6 data fields. 1 of them is by default. There'll be cadence there.
18:54.55
Matt
Ah.
19:10.60
Rohan
Yeah, yeah, and then like speed and distance it's something that people understand really easily so it stays and so speed. Okay, you might be because it's interesting if you're doing training you might specifically be training to cadence.
19:12.20
drwill
Like look. We'll just populate there with something else.
19:29.55
Rohan
Or to speed and like so if you've now overwritten one of those with power but you want to try this power sensor. Yeah, it's become a hassle and that is one of the the struggles of introducing new technology is the hurdle of becoming part of the bigger. Ecosystem this setup that a user already has and so a lot of companies go out will have their app and make things work the way that work for them and as soon as you try and integrate into the bigger system. You've realize okay, this hasn't been thought out we need a way. To make it happen and so yeah, when you mentioned that I was thinking trying to integrate so muscle Oxygen years ago same thing so put a sensor on different muscle muscle figure out your lactate threshold makes total sense laboratory setting being used forever having that something you can take out.
20:15.83
drwill
Ah, yeah.
20:26.83
Rohan
Or Even using Laboratory as an affordable product. So They there's a couple of companies doing it same thing send out as Cadence However, one of the sensors trying to integrate that it would require you to hit it to turn it on and it would start flashing then you could connect to it. And then it would be on and connected but it wouldn't start recording any information or even sending out any information on Muscle Oxygen until you'd send like a start command and so because it's it's using Leds. It is a bunch of power. And so from the sort of someone trying to integrate that into their product whether that be a watch an app or a head unit. You have to make all of these pieces work and then and plus as a control method. It doesn't have sort of guaranteed messages getting through. Part of the way. It's really low power. Is. It just consistently sends out updates and if you miss 1 Oh well, you've missed it and in terms of recording data. That's that's fine in most cases because you want the latest you don't want to be falling behind in what data you've got. But if you're trying to send a command to.
21:41.61
drwill
Yeah.
21:42.51
Rohan
Start or stop a sensor and it's not getting through then you've got to figure that out of how do you manage that and especially at the end of your running a ride the person wants to stop and turn off their device but it hasn't been able to send a stop command yet. So these little things which when you're designing it as a. You know technical designer. You're like yeah easy send to the stop command but then you put it out in the real world and this user goes great finish My ride stop turn it off and then you've got batteries dead next time because the stop command never went through so little things like that. Just. More exposure different companies. Get you start to realize these things learn from other people's mistakes learn from your own mistakes and say things should be getting better and that's definitely something I've seen that even the technical people are generally starting to have this more understanding of product. Decision.
22:39.24
drwill
Yeah, if I think one of the latest ones I've seen would be super sapiens continuous glucose monitoring and that seemed to get adopted pretty quickly by devices. Um from what I've seen like I know you can get it on the Garmin straight away.
22:55.76
Rohan
Yeah, so there's been. Yeah, absolutely so connect iq allowing anyone to create their own data fields apps to go on a Garmin.
22:57.89
drwill
I Guess connect Likeq Apps must be a revelation as well, right? So that's apps you can get on to onto carmen. Yeah.
23:13.33
Rohan
That was interesting because at the same time as I was working for Garmin trying to create an android api for application programmers to use I had visibility into the fact that there was this other Garmin project happening that was creating the connect iq and the ability for app programmers to write that. And wow I had it easy watching that team try and create a library that would work or an interface that would work across every device that Garmin creates trying to do it in a low power like resource constrained environment that was a big effort. But once that came out it was a game changer so now almost every sensor product I work on 1 of the first steps is okay, do we want to connect iq version to get it onto Garlin and you write it for Garmin and it only works with Garlin doesn't work with anyone else, but in terms of getting. Access to your product out there. It's it's a step but it's a big step. So Garmin's to put the effort in. But yeah, opened that up and then it's it's now an option. However, there's also so a lot especially a lot of the Android based by computers they are. A lot quicker than garmin to adopt new things because there's this ability to to basically port in existing apps. so that's wahoo no so different so for Garmin's got their own thing where os is.
24:39.84
drwill
Do they use we're where os.
24:51.40
Rohan
Not very good at any sports technology. So that's been. Oh yeah, that's become more so it's got the Google influence there but it's I say uses too much battery in general. So it's had a lot of improvements and it is getting better. So it's mostly designed about general use.
24:52.88
drwill
Okay, yeah, so that's all Health space pretty much is it? yeah.
25:01.71
drwill
Yeah.
25:10.10
Rohan
And so yes, long and slow so health where you can just check check your stats every hour versus going for a run and a ride and checking your stats every second. But yeah, there's many different ways and so there's been different companies struggling and so.
25:14.17
drwill
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:28.17
Rohan
Ah, sunto released product a while ago that was a wearos based watch and I it would have been a struggle for them because it lost so many features than they'd previously had but they changed from being there. Ah totally. Custom system with all of their own stuff to using this operating system that had a lot of the work done for them but all of those standout features that were their thing disappeared. So Potentially they lost a lot of their custom base because they'd been around for a long time as The. It just works but they were just getting left behind and so I feel like now I did not what have you said of Abouts and say ah they missed the boat. Yes.
26:08.93
drwill
Did you see that comment I put in our show notes about sunto. Ah I said who who's missed the boat in the last decade not even decade I'd say half Deca Ida sunto because.
26:15.19
Matt
Ah, will was.
26:27.20
drwill
It was it just worked and then a game changer for over the last five years structured workouts. Um, and the support for structured workouts and then leaving that out so and connect iq like because with stryd they initially supported. Stride without having to use any third party anything. Um and you could use it as a power meter on a lower end or midrange device like more of that 2 $ 300 us range whereas only like the 9 ten or nine twenty garmins would support it so you know I remember getting in with one of those after the ambit come me what series that was. But anyway yeah, and then since then I've been yeah, kind of since especially since the C Sonto 9
27:20.44
Rohan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so that about the sunto 9 was when they I think they were already. They'd recognized they were behind and all the backend work was happening to to try and catch up and so that's sort of what that product was meant to be.
27:24.11
drwill
I Think being a little left behind.
27:40.24
Rohan
So I think the seven and the nine were really attempting to catch up but because they'd let me so it going like it started working my working life with Motorola they same thing left behind noia you know if you didn't jump on Android then you couldn't keep up and that's almost been the same. For sort of that sports technology side like not necessarily Android but just getting on a platform that has the base functionality that you can grow on top of and so sunto like I was surprised so I spent a few years living in France and in Europe there was definitely a lot more sunto than. The rest of the world. So I think they're they're a lot more prevalent than people think just because of europe is still a pretty big market but not compared to the North America Uk is a bit different from the rest of Europe Australia New Zealand's probably in there a little bit. Significantly more uptake on new technology and so Europe yes, they're not totally behind the times they're just not buying something new every year like many people in North America Australia and so it's.
28:41.32
drwill
I.
28:55.30
Rohan
Ah, from a ah product side. It's interesting because you're like okay, there's all these millions of people you can sell something to but if you target for basically North America and Australia you're much better off for some reason we love to buy new things.
29:09.43
Matt
That's true because like our breakcase backers are mostly from New Zealand Australia and the us and then a few in Europe like obviously there are way more people that need a break ace but for the people that wanted to jump on right away like those were our main.
29:20.56
Rohan
That.
29:26.98
Matt
Ah, our main people at Backless which is interesting.
29:28.20
Rohan
Yeah, and so it's yeah, it's that thing. Ah, as for me personally I spent 4 years in the french alps or just on the edge of the french alps and finding different projects trying to work sort of more locally not across different time. Zones. Was working with a few european companies and the culture is definitely different like it's even the the technical people whereas you I wanted to before coming back to Australia go and spend some time in the us because yeah, meet see those people find out who's doing things and so. You know, finding the cool stuff and so something like breakcase is like okay, is it going to be a thing that happens in Europe like well maybe but it's all much harder to find go to? Yeah North America Australia region and there are people just making stuff happen much easier. And so there was some pretty cool stuff. So I was working on a project with a dutch company called Hubtech that were making a wirelessly controlled adjust your air pressure in your tires while you're writing and a lot really cool engineering so created ah a little pump that.
30:34.75
drwill
Well.
30:43.17
Rohan
In the hub and get it works and so that was cool getting involved in that it's also have one of those things like I'm not going to bite like I don't see the point the the main use case was the guy who started it had done a race in the Netherlands where. It's mountain biking. They don't have many mountains sort of make it interesting. They went through a whole bunch of sand and then they were going along the like sea wall which is all concrete and it's like there's no good way to set up your bike for this and so it made a product to make that work. Whereas yeah, something like brocase you get to and it's like okay this works and it works in every condition everywhere you go for everyone. That's riding a mountain bike even if that is a race on sand and along the edge of the sea versus in the mountains and so yeah, just because things are happening. Isn't necessarily a good thing but I'll happily get involved and I hope that it's successful because yeah, anything you don't know what the future is of any product but but.
31:50.22
Matt
That is interesting. Um like obviously when we launch break as we had all that press you read through the comments and obviously I've read through all of them and they stopped offending me pretty quickly because they did they did. Ah.
32:02.73
drwill
No, they didn't no they didn't they don't they did you would ring me up and you'd be like let did you see this guy. It's just.
32:09.77
Matt
Yeah I did strange shot a lot of it like there are people like like 1 a dude like would just post like the middle finger on like every single thing that came up is from New Zealand like why? why? but um, one of the things that someone said is like.
32:11.44
Rohan
That.
32:27.80
Matt
Um, just because you can doesn't mean you should like okay I understand what you're trying to say like that just because we have these advances that we can make in technology doesn't mean that you it doesn't mean that you want it but and then so that kind of makes me think about the.
32:35.51
Rohan
And that yeah.
32:46.95
Matt
Automatic, um air pressure changing thing like just because you can doesn't mean you should well actually like this pretty cool tech. No I don't really want it. But do I think that there's an application for it at some point. Yeah, definitely like that is cool tech.
32:57.96
Rohan
That's. Yeah.
33:04.63
Matt
Um, and maybe it's not there yet or whatever. But um, I'm always thinking about this like which is which is coming first like the the actual way to do it and then there's the what to do with it part and like with some. Pieces of technology like a power Meter. We already knew what to do with it before they existed right? because we had been measuring power in the lab Forever. So then it was easy. It's like okay, let's try to communicate all that information and then.
33:27.11
Rohan
Yeah, yeah.
33:34.29
Rohan
Yeah, although I feel like that's not even true like there's a lot of people power meters came out and as a consumer they'd get it and agree like they would have it just because they could but didn't know what to do with it and so as a yeah.
33:47.60
Matt
Yeah, it is still the case. Yeah, but ah, you know the science was already there like this this is why measuring power is important because well we've been doing it in the lab for one hundred and eighty years well maybe not that long a long time.
33:50.34
drwill
That's still the case here.
33:52.60
Rohan
Absolutely I yet I.
34:03.79
drwill
We had. We had already like figured out calculations to determine power. You know, like in the 1920 s or something from you know and like v o 2 and so if we could have a proxy for how hard you're working is more reliable than the heart rate. We'd had things like that. But no one you know has done that for how much energy are you removing or wasting using your brakes on a downhill track. No one's ever done that or even maybe even really most people haven't questioned it even.
34:33.67
Rohan
Head.
34:41.19
drwill
Like they've just get guest or or not cared or whatever and so then you create something like that or what would be yeah, what would be in another one I didn't I don't know Cadence I guess maybe people did.
34:52.61
Rohan
Yeah, I'd say the there's a lot of work been happening for a long time on the aerodynamics sensors and that's definitely one where okay it's known why it's useful, but so what and so the better the technology becomes the better that.
34:57.86
drwill
Ah, yeah, yeah, so that one.
35:12.24
Rohan
Like more useful the data that comes out of it is and so there's been years of these companies working on these sensors and yes, having to change through a bit. What is the use case. They're trying to deliver. But if those products didn't exist at all then someone who wanted to get that data. Has no way to do it and so the main issue with aerodynamic sensors is they're always making assumptions. It's not directly measuring something you actually want and so yes, if you know all of the different resistance. Ah, forces that you ah have having this sensor that can measure basically the the air pressure changes or the amount of air that's flowing past you, you can start to have some pretty good calculations. However, you're making assumptions on what road surface are you on like what track surface. What is the exact sort of angle you're going up and down how much rolling resistance. Do you have like there are a lot of unknowns but having that sensor there because so sports technology isn't just for consumers. A lot of the products. You buy have had a lot of technology go into making them as good as possible. So simple example, you buy a jersey now. You can just go buy whatever any someone's just made a jersey by hand cut it up zone it together but to actually get some performance. You'll have companies that have put their materials put their cut put their you know different how they've got different thicknesses of material where the stitching is to make it more comfortable. So when you're out for a 6 hour ride it doesn't slow you down because you start to get chafing. It doesn't fall apart when you're in that crash so that you can now get up and continue writing and so these different sensors and different ways of recording information. There's a lot of behind the scenes use of that data so specializes wind tunnel is a good example. They abstract they're doing a lot of this extra testing in their controlled environment but not every manufacturer has access to something like that. So if you've got these companies making a product that's aimed at consumers so stryde or any of the run power meters. Shoe manufacturers that are using those sensors before those sensors existed. They had no way of collecting or easily collecting out in the field running data so they could put a user in their lab have some test of run around have force plates.
38:01.80
Rohan
Something motion sensing to know exactly what their' how their foot is moving. However, if you can send worldwide a sense that you clip on your shoe send people out and just measure the differences as they change to different shoes that field testing is now quantifiable. Rather than just having your athletes say I liked this one I didn't like this one and so there's.
38:23.35
drwill
Yeah.
38:24.85
Matt
It also logistically becomes a lot cheaper to do your field testing because now you don't have like 6 people in in your lab doing this testing. You just have real users out in the real world using your product.
38:35.55
Rohan
Yeah, exactly and you can do backto back testing of a world class athlete versus your average weekend warrior you know you can instead of having to have a full telemetry setup. That you've had someone have to put on you and make sure it's right record everyone can you can just hey if you want to turn up and do this get involved in the new product testing come along. And yeah, with that reduce logistics you've got access to more people and so that's a lot of these technologies. Don't really need to be direct commercial success to actually be worthwhile and so this idea of just because you can doesn't mean you should doesn't really apply because or anything you can do you don't know what you're going to do with that data and it might make something better. So. Breakcase. Everyone's now able to have data on how their brakes are working some brake manufacturer can then end up going hey we didn't realize people were doing this or when we put out data or compare our data from A.WorldCupAthlete who's who we've been measuring all this time to your weekend warrior the difference in how they use their brakes changes how they work by this. Maybe we should change our product to accommodate that and so even if you've never ridden a breakcase you might end up. Having better breaks in the next few years because there's a product out there. That's recording data that was never available before so now instead of just assuming what happens these product manufacturers can actually use real-world data. And there's definitely many.
40:29.62
drwill
That'll be funny for that guy who's pulling the fingers e you Matt on every post like mate you've got those breaks like I sold I sold to them. You were actually writing it. Yeah.
40:34.40
Matt
Show Just yeah, come on man I'm not offended anymore. But maybe I'll send him that sound bite.
40:35.83
Rohan
I get.
40:44.97
Rohan
Ah, that you don't have to be offended. You can still be entertained and then laugh at them later.
40:48.45
Matt
Yeah, yeah, definitely you know I guess like what you're talking about is you're talking about innovation right? This is exactly what you're talking about and like you you can do this because you have this and then you can have better clothing. You can have better. Technology can have better breaks. You can have better experience and it's like well innovation has to start somewhere and I guess as I look at it. You know the innovation in technology especially like big companies are just not super willing to. Do a lot of that innovation just I guess because it's so like as we're Finding. It's bloody hard. Ah, it's a hard job to kind of make these changes like I guess it's more of a remark than a question but it's like I wish like what we could have is like.
41:29.25
Rohan
Yeah, yeah.
41:42.16
Matt
Innovation happening at a faster rate across you know the big guys and the small guys and then everyone would just benefit more but also along the lines of um like specialize with their wind Tunnel. For example, like they have some amazing capabilities in-house to test Aerodynamics. Which is an incredibly important part of riding a bike and we talked about in one of our last episodes one of the 4 things slowing you down like obviously mountain biking not as important because you're going a little bit slower and actually we're lining up an aerodynamics episode too. But um, one of the things that I saw a specialized some specialized riders doing in the world cup. Is for example, like putting their hands on their fork crowns right? to like during a short track or something or on the straight section of ah of a race right? So Obviously like there's someone out there that believes that that is the most aerodynamic position. Okay, maybe it is.
42:32.17
Rohan
Thing.
42:39.52
Matt
Maybe that's the most aerodynamic position you can be in on a mountain bike. But I'll I'll tell you this that is the sketchiest position you could ever be in in a mountain bike so somewhere along will try to and I I had to take a photo I thought he was going to crash I was like dude don't do that around me ever again.
42:44.24
Rohan
Yeah I'm terrified just thinking about it.
42:55.37
drwill
Do you know I did it I did it just the other day when I was going for the strava. The forest loop strava and I was heading back down. You know this? no on the cycle way. Do you know why I did it because being like crouched down you can't like get in a good Era Comfortable arrow position.
42:57.58
Matt
But.
43:01.30
Matt
On trails.
43:14.42
drwill
On like flat bars on like a mountain bike bar so actually being able to extend my arms fully and kind of like lock them out on my crown fort crown stanchions like it was way more comfortable.
43:24.51
Rohan
Yeah, what Midride Yoga Why not.
43:27.28
Matt
Everything he said there just makes me feel gives me the chills because I but I to me, it's a it's an issue of um, kind of interpretation of quality information right? So This information is like yep. It's way more arrow, but it's actually really really, really, really sketchy. So Maybe we shouldn't actually be doing that and I guess along the lines of innovating. Maybe even if it's innovating that position. It's like well I think maybe there needs to be maybe a little bit more work going into the interpretation of that. So that way. We also can have people riding in a safer position.
44:07.56
drwill
Chris firm.
44:07.85
Rohan
Yeah, yeah, well yeah, but even just thinking arrow bars as an innovation at the time arrow bars were added someone ah exactly that same realization I want to get into this position but I can't because if I hold the bars my arms are in the wrong place. So. Um, gonna add these hey look and I can also just lean on them and actually have a bit of a rest. Yeah, once you get onto trails. It's as I think of your you're not really able to switch off at any point if you want to have your most performance you need to be moving. And so if you're fixed in 1 position. You're now basically adding more force back into the trail in the wrong way and resisting being able to roll and so yeah, soon as you're I totally understand if I was. Doing a like uphill slog or well even a long flat slog maybe slightly down get into that position to try and so try and let imitate your competitors like if you if I could pass someone in a position where I'm holding the fork crowns. Feel like that would start to just make them go this guy knows something I want to I want to do what he's doing but I don't know why.
45:26.96
Matt
That's a good point Actually that's a good point you get kind of messed with people right? Yeah, we did we talk? yeah or like you accidentally swerve into them where um.
45:30.53
Rohan
Absolutely until you ride into a tree.
45:40.98
Matt
Just take you out because they're a bit annoyed at you? Um, but that is like the intimidation factor I guess of some of this technology is also pretty important. We talked with Lewis Kirkwood mechanic up on the world cup. You was saying how Loak Bruni just like casually rolled through the pits with his dad acquisition bike. At like the very last moment before racing started.
46:01.77
drwill
Yeah, he could have gone like straight to his tent or something or around the back 8 and he went past the front of like everyone's tent.
46:03.73
Rohan
Ah.
46:08.36
Matt
Yeah, yeah, just to mess with them.
46:11.83
Rohan
Yeah, it doesn't even need to be plugged in at that point the more the more flashing leds The better.
46:15.60
Matt
Ah, maybe it is I don't even know if they look at it because ah, but.
46:20.89
drwill
Yeah, yeah, and so there was a question I Want to ask you is and yeah because you worked on with that element. The wahoo was it how it um what? What's the goal for some of these.
46:30.96
Rohan
Yeah, so.
46:40.16
drwill
Startups and these new sensors or head units or even software like because you're being involved with all sides of it I Guess um because you mentioned the um like what is it industry like the actual so like a brake manufacturer may be interested in breakcase or.
46:45.28
Rohan
And.
46:59.79
drwill
A bike or clothing manufacturer component manufacturer may be interested in ah in a wind sensor or aerodynamic sensor. What's the end goal for a lot of these companies like when when wahu's bringing out the the um. He unit whenever that was I remember thinking like what are they doing it looks clunky and square and like there's Garmin like why would you and who else is out at at the time one of the big players. But and now it's like what people get you know.
47:24.19
Rohan
Yeah, yeah.
47:32.95
Rohan
Yeah, so I'd start with the wahoo element being you know wahoo suddenly appeared on the scene that was or maybe their fourth or fifth head unit if you're depending how you think about it and they already had a bunch of sensors. So. For them. They were a sensor company so they had the different heart rate monitors speed sensors cadence sensors that they originally they were a mobile device company so they wanted to integrate into the iphone so chip who created the company literally. Hey I've got a phone that does everything why do I need to buy something else to go for a run or a ride so that was the original wahoo ethos just use the existing mobile things stuff. That's there and so they had.
48:18.25
drwill
Ah, yeah.
48:27.62
Rohan
From that they created their own apps so they had the the element in form on the Ios and Android devices because it was a ride recording app that would connect to sensors record your Gps upload and they would upload everywhere then from that they had their reflect. Which was something you'd put on your handlebars and it would connect to the app and the app itself on the phone was doing all of the work and it was the reflect because it would just show that data so wahoo already had a lot of experience. They even did a reflect plus that was. A kickstarter I believe I think that added amplus through the sensor that through the display as the way to connect. So then your phone didn't need it so they'd had a lot of experience and they'd been in the industry for a while and then they realized well people are buying our products. But we're now like our sensors but we're now basically making those available to these other head unit manufacturers mostly Garmin when we could just create our own and so it became they created that product but stuck with this ethos of we're just making. Mobile phone connected device and so the vision for the element was purely. It's going to be easy to use. No more than 2 clicks on the element at any time whereas if you've ever tried to set up a Garmin you need to do many hundreds of clicks to go set anything up drill through the menus. It's all there. Great if you can find it where is it.
50:06.87
Matt
Dude mine became a brick from like over tapping I think because I had to like tap through so many menus like just wore out. Yeah, it's mission.
50:12.19
drwill
What just to calibrate your power meter.
50:16.14
Rohan
And then remember to click save not cancel and then yeah go back press the wrong button and especially when it's not touchscreen but you will think it is so yeah tap and away and so yeah, the element Obviously even originally no color screen.
50:26.21
Matt
Ah.
50:35.13
Rohan
Only the few buttons but you just did everything from your phone so you do your initial pairing and then just set it up from your phone and yeah, you could do some things on the head unit but you didn't need to and so that was the original thing just make it something else that adds into their little personal cloud. That was fun. So when they released that product they were on a pretty good deal with Apple selling sensors in the Apple store so that was the 1 massive thing that wahoo had over garment was you would go and buy your iphone and go okay, what else do I buy with this. Brand new cool thing and there in a cabinet was heart rate monitor or you know some other bike sensor that you're like okay I ride let me put this cadence sensor on there and they'd get you in and so the element became one of those tools. Okay now I can.
51:16.44
drwill
And.
51:33.25
Rohan
Keep this thousand dollar phone hidden away in my pocket bag somewhere out of the way and put this wabu element head unit on there and it just becomes part of my iphone system and that is a big thing I think of. How all of these sensors has become bigger I remember years ago reading an article cycling is the new gulf you get? yeah and it totally made sense and it's just gotten bigger if you're if you if you want to be.
51:56.68
drwill
Yeah, yeah.
51:59.52
Matt
Forbes that was a Forbes article. Yeah.
52:03.46
drwill
1 ebikes.
52:06.19
Matt
Yeah.
52:10.90
Rohan
But of respected you know business sense you go out and ride with the other like business managers and that's it you go in your chat on your ride, but it's competitive. First of all, you don't want to be dropped and second of all you want to have the best equipment and so that's that's great for someone like me who's trying to sell. Products. There's a lot of people that don't use them still want to buy them and a new one comes out I'd say yeah, having this idea that it's just you don't need to understand the technology. It's there in the Apple store ready to go that goes back to this. It just works mentality that as more and more becoming the standard like. Must have regardless of functionality. It has to just work somewhat where like Garmin is massive so talking by computer space. Those head units. It's almost garmin versus everybody else and so I've been at a conference where there's been different. Head unit manufacturers almost talking about how to make things work together like this is technical people rather than business people because they just want to make a product that people use and they know that if you go and buy a garmin. It might actually be a wahoo but. That person's talking about the garmin they just bought and so it's sad and shit. So yeah, this I just getting new things out. There is tough because even if you've got a product that people love. They're not helping you sell it because.
53:28.72
drwill
I.
53:30.50
Matt
That's what I call mine I still call mine a Garmin.
53:45.29
Rohan
Competing against this big entrenched player and that's not there's nothing wrong with that like Garman does great work and it's good to have a big company that does keep pushing but it is it is tough when yeah, you're someone else.
53:58.35
Matt
Yeah I'm wondering you said like if you have a product. You love? What do you think makes a product that people love I'm thinking of all the things out there stride ah wahoo ah with that whoop right? I was working with an athlete that had.
54:08.50
Rohan
Dash.
54:15.12
Rohan
And then.
54:17.66
Matt
Had whoop and your break aces obviously and your sram access systems like how what makes 1 product more lovable than the other.
54:26.14
Rohan
Yeah, first of all the 1 you have people don't tend to talk down something. They've got unless it's really not working for them and so once you're involved and that in get your once you're in that product system like Apple for example. Doesn't matter if they release an update that doesn't work very well once you're in you're in and you love it and more and more we're seeing it's bragging rates if you've got a way that you know. Okay, you've got your whoop band. It gives you some stat that you can share and show off then people are more. Willing to keep using it and so for me I I really like the idea of things being ubiquitous. You don't even think about it. You just press a button without any thinking it records whatever but for a lot of people. It's about making it seen. And so people do love to be able to brag I'm sure everyone's done it at some point gone if that was a great run that was a great ride I have to share that to social media and like who's which is the best platform that.
55:30.91
drwill
Have no idea where you're talking about audience is like I've I don't know like us on my phone while listening to this sharing something. It's fine. Um, yeah, well.
55:32.16
Matt
Ah, wells thinking you you mean right now.
55:39.94
Rohan
Ah.
55:45.89
Rohan
Ah, yeah, and it's it is interesting where it's people don't even necessarily have to love the product to Advertise it because they can be sitting there wrestling with it. But at the end there's yeah, a Gps map with some photo. They've got or. You know a ah little gold badge showing they've achieved something and they're like okay I just spent half an hour wrestling to get that to upload, but now that it's there I'm going to tell everyone how great it is because I want to show off. Third.
56:09.57
Matt
Ah.
56:14.89
drwill
So where are we in in sports tech like um Strava I don't know I guess I'll give that that's the question where are we? what's what's the landscape of the moment because you're talking about people who.
56:26.87
Rohan
Yeah, yeah.
56:32.50
drwill
Could potentially have the worst product on the market and they're still going to say it's amazing. So look what obviously it's a market that's probably not that well informed. Um, yeah, what you answer it go.
56:44.30
Rohan
Yeah I think the big thing is the last couple of years the world has changed and sports tech has done amazingly well out of the changes so you tell people they have to stay at home and suddenly everyone wants to go for a run.
56:53.65
drwill
Yeah.
57:01.68
Rohan
Or you say you can only go within five kilometers of home and suddenly everyone wants to get out into the bush and go for yeah, an extra long ride. Ah yeah, like okay stay at home look well I've been sitting at home every day for the last few years but now that you've told me I have to stay at home I want to do a workout and. All of the gym equipment sold out and so it's become this case of people are getting more into sport and part of that is they're stuck at home unable to share it and so using the sports tech has become a social platform so Strava a long time ago. Decided they were a social media platform and I think it has had a benefit on just general people's mental health being able to have this push to do some exercise and then the idea of then. Okay, now I've got this other product that tells me to do specific training. And so okay, all of these people that were never informed. There's such a thing as training versus just exercising and now in this platform that's telling them. Ah you should try this and actually do some training and so it's definitely the right time for more technology. In regards to people are self-sufficient in trying to make things happen plus from that they've grown to go. Okay now I can get better how do I get better I wanting to reach out to different if you you have a coach you can talk to online. Great. And if they're able to see some actual data of you out doing your workouts then they can give you proper feedback rather than just say well you said that was too hard so not push through anyway or we'll make it a bit easier. It can actually be actual data telling them. Look your power dropped by this much your heart rate spiked by this much. Let's try something different and so that's been available for a long time now. But the mainstream adoption of it is the big change and I feel part of that now means a lot of the companies that have. Been in place or a starting up have this ability to be a little geeky know they're like okay we are making this available this information to you. You need this sensor to do it. It's becoming more and more sort of reasonable that people will do that. And on the technology side battery technology wireless technology. They're the 2 big things that just can never be good enough. You want a product that is small lightweight doesn't get in the way doesn't need recharging constantly is just there and ready to go.
59:50.78
Rohan
And so these things like talking about bluetooth low energy and amplus not being available in a phone before that anyone who made a product to talk to a phone needed to basically use bluetooth classic or some hacked together option to use the existing technologies. And so the people that were really interested could go and get this sensor and it would probably be heavy and they'd have to charge it every couple of hours and now we get you buy something you charge it and a week later like I should probably charge this again or you know. Sensors especially that just turn themselves off if they're on your bike or your shoe like six months later a year later. Okay, let's change the battery and that sort of it just works ubiquitous idea of just it's there without you having to worry about it is what's constantly. Yeah. Every year you could say this is the year things have gotten better because it has been constantly improving and it's it is now really cool. How small things can be and be practical. So I feel like it's the actual products and the ability to make products. Technology to make them is available and so all of these companies, especially the smaller companies that are doing something in a way to meet a use case that they want is what's the the big thing now. So especially things like kickstarter you can. Get that proof of concept like proof of market that some people are out there wanting it so are hoping we'll just see more and more so I've worked with big companies and then reached out to little companies like 1 person in their garage. Everyone. It's the same people right. Everyone wants to create something cool and so it is cool now that that is possible that there are these big companies. But the little guys can compete. So yeah, whatever's coming next who knows.
01:01:54.17
drwill
So what about the like Zwift have you dealt with them at all like as I see zwerf and obviously you've got the end over the recent 2 years right you've staying at home community then I see strava and you've got. Social media again community based sharing competing um these that these platforms are exploding. But yeah, how do they fit into the into the landscape. Do you think like.
01:02:26.94
Rohan
Yeah I didn't see an article the other day Usc cycling is using Rood Grand tours for their virtual upcoming season rather than zwift. There's ah there are multiple players are they? yeah.
01:02:36.79
drwill
Um, yeah, yeah, iron man use. Um Ruby I'm pretty sure and.
01:02:38.75
Matt
I'd never even heard of that. Yeah.
01:02:44.74
Rohan
There's there's many different options and they all do things a little differently and at the same time It's like that I think the big thing is the social side but also getting people into structured training and so Zwift. It's. Say a lot of people can just go for a ride but they'll still use dwift because okay at this time I join up with my mates for a group ride and I don't have to add their travel time if I need to stop I can so that ease of use is a massive thing and so Zwift. It's crazy when people will be okay, it's a 4 am start so I can join this group ride and then doing it so they can ride on Zwift with other people and like it's become a yeah ah a legitimate ah ride that you do and yeah, why not? So there's. Products out there that try and allow you to do a structured ride control your resistance while you're out on the road because this idea of just riding is inefficient and none of us have enough time to do everything we want and so if we can make going for just a fun ride. And efficient way to actually do some training then that's what a lot of people want and so Zwift is great for that. You can I my when I first got had a kicker first got on Zwift and or even golden cheater. But fourswift and it's just a screen with stats. But you could load up a structured workout and that realization that wow I can go for half an hour ride and get something out of this like I feel like I've pushed myself I've trained hard and I've now can go. And continue my day and I'm at home already and it's taken me half an hour and that efficiency is I think the big thing that these different training tools and because it's yes we say okay the social side of it. You can get on there and if you're stuck at home. You can go for a ride. But It's not the only reason people are using it. But yeah so I feel like that's a big thing that has come out of sort of the zwifts and even the you know anyone having a sort of online structured training. But then also the different mapping technologies if you have your head unit. You can load on this is where I want to ride and you can just go explore somewhere new. It used to be you go for ride. You have to pull out a map even if phone get Google maps or something to check. But if you've taken it wrong. Turns you've now turned your 1 hour ride into a 2 hour ride
01:05:34.13
Rohan
This idea of having this technology that makes things more efficient. You're now willing to try new things. So I know that's that's definitely been the case for me if I can get something to tell me what to do and I don't have to blame myself for making the wrong decision I'm much more happy to try something new. Okay.
01:05:39.82
drwill
Yeah, yeah.
01:05:50.40
Matt
Ah, that puts a lot of pressure on the people developing the technologies. That's interesting though like the efficiency side where Zwift is in a way social and in a way working out where we don't have a lot of time. So if you can bang all that out and 1 go.
01:05:56.14
Rohan
It.
01:06:08.92
Rohan
That that. Yeah yeah.
01:06:09.53
Matt
A pretty good thing right? because we don't have a lot of time to go ride or socialize and.
01:06:12.33
drwill
Well, they also um, it just works right now on the Zwift doesn't always just work but 1 the back area like the after the workout super easy to share that to social media you know and same with like so it's pretty easy now to get.
01:06:25.27
Matt
Yeah.
01:06:26.60
Rohan
That is.
01:06:31.50
drwill
Everything on to Strava. So that's step 1 now Strava's got straight Shearer Stories you know your Instagram or your Facebook or you can like just messenger it or whatever and that like Matt you and I we would have five years ago never used looked at Strava for an athlete's workout. But now they've up to the game and I can it's easier sometimes to check strava for a quick view rather than going into training peaks and having to use like that next level up type of analytics.
01:07:02.49
Matt
Yeah, some of it's easy like you can get a quick snapshot like real easy because that's what they do. They give you a quick snapshot. They don't They're not trying to be a training Peaks which gives you in-depth stuff. Yeah.
01:07:12.53
drwill
Yeah, like there's those um segments are amazing because when you know your athlete's always doing this hill this loop whatever and you know you've got other athletes in the area or you know of the other the athletes in the area. You can go. Okay, well you're a minute off you know Catherine this there's pretty good. You know. Stuff like that. But yeah, and so integration I guess.
01:07:36.87
Rohan
Yeah, and that idea of anyone can do that suddenly this competitiveness comes out where you don't have to be competitive against someone else. You can be competitive against yourself. So this driver even the Zwift the fact that yeah, they've got the segments built into it. You're out just for easy cruise and then you see like oh this is the start of a segment It's pretty hard not to push harder.
01:07:59.60
drwill
When zwif does like that countdown say your seventeenth eighteenth and I I'll just I'll just pick it up a little bit so I can least get top 20 top 30 top 40 you like damn you? How do you do that.
01:08:02.59
Rohan
No yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:08:13.29
Rohan
Yeah, although from my perspective I love strava because it expands the the ecosystem of every product. So all these different silos of information. As soon as you got a way to get it into Strava. You can get it out to everywhere else as well like it's become this sort of. Hub that any platform that has data tries to get it to Strava and then tries to get from strava as well and so it's made it so easy to you know you can have your Garmin connect your training peaks or today's plan your Strava. Or even just your like wahoo fitness app doesn't necessarily have its own platform but you can just say upload to Strava and then from there it can end up on Garmin connect or training pigs like just as this hub. It's amazing because used to be you'd have to hunt down. Data. Okay, which which device which app did I use to record that run that ride. But if can all funnel through 1 place then it's just makes it easier to go back and review what you've done.
01:09:25.75
drwill
So a last question for me Strava like they don't make any money like as a company. What's their end game like.
01:09:27.56
Rohan
Plus.
01:09:39.72
Rohan
Well depends what you mean by there because obviously there's the investors and then there's the for technical people running the company. So obviously endgame is to make money. However, their approach you do it. They're popular enough that the investors are interested and so.
01:09:42.35
Matt
Can ground it.
01:09:43.60
drwill
Yes, true.
01:09:56.74
drwill
Um, yeah.
01:09:59.55
Rohan
In terms of what they're doing right Now. It's keep enough people involved that the investors are interested but definitely endgame is to make money and is it always the push for subscription things getting removed from free and added to Premium. And then at the same time trying to build up some customer loyalty so they've had things like beacon which would track where you are and allow anyone else to see if you're safe still switching from the subscription paid version to the free model but it's all about keeping people involved the more they can get people on the platform. They're they're almost guaranteed to exist if we're all using it end game definitely make money. That's everyone's end game and then it's sort of interesting in that they've set themselves up that almost no one would want to buy them because.
01:10:44.10
drwill
Yeah.
01:10:57.19
Rohan
Everyone just sort of integrates into it anyway. So it would be interesting to see if if someone was to buy out strava who would it be so think like Garmin is the obvious choice Garmin tried or they do have their own segments that you can just totally within the Garmin world create a segment compete.
01:11:12.33
drwill
Do they still do that I remember they used to they pushed it really hard for a while and then they just.
01:11:15.94
Rohan
And there you have to do it. So. Yeah, and I was like well yeah yeah, but for that well it doesn't matter if someone wants to use segments. They buy a Garmin watch head unit and just compare their segments on Strava.
01:11:20.85
Matt
But you just haven't logged in.
01:11:37.71
Rohan
The live segments show up on their device anyway and so that as a product manufacturer you haven't lost anything by that user having a strava subscription. So yeah, it's going to be interesting to see what the future is because almost there's so many cases. And has to at some point integrate into something else, but that no one has any need to purchase them.
01:12:01.55
drwill
Yeah, is there any competitors that you know of.
01:12:05.24
Rohan
So yes, and no so obviously any online platform is in theory a competitor. So the main thing that we're talking about being competitor in is paying for a subscription. So there's a lot of people that will pay for a training peak subscription.
01:12:18.28
drwill
I yeah.
01:12:25.10
Rohan
But won't pay for a strava subscription. However, the more training tools that Strava adds they're trying to pull those subscription users over from training fix and so yeah, the idea of someone using 1 app platform over another It's almost It's not a competitive because you can just use everything but the idea of getting paid users absolutely and so it's almost why Strava has done well in that they've got all the users on the free platform even if they're paying for something else.
01:13:03.73
drwill
Yeah, so everyone else has got the page users and Australia's got all the free ones.
01:13:03.88
Rohan
Then never going to leave strava. There's it's 3 Yeah and so that is yeah exactly? Um, but the people who are paying are still using strava.
01:13:10.57
Matt
Crumbs but you know what you add up. Ah yeah, you add up a lot of crumbs and suddenly you have a big loaf of bread. You know if you have enough crumbs. Ah.
01:13:20.77
Rohan
Yeah, and like you've said as a coach you can use straver and that becomes more and more of well. Okay, if the people that I'm coaching. Don't use. The other thing they use Strava. We start with that and that pushes them to then go? Okay I'm going to pay for the premium. Because you've said if you had access to this data. It would be more useful. So okay I'll get into that. But obviously they're not specialized enough in that and not a big enough team to make things really happen on that training side. So I would. Sort of people. We're talking about are us who care about the data and the training and so a more in-depth platform so that training specific platforms. It's going to be pretty hard to walk away from.
01:14:15.46
drwill
Yeah, totally well, that's it. That's it for me Matt anymore for you.
01:14:18.48
Matt
Yeah now I think we should leave it there. That's ah it's been a really good discussion. Um I think one of the things I was hoping we get into is like making use of all the data especially because that is the most important thing not just getting the data. But I think we'll have to leave that for another day.
01:14:33.91
Rohan
Yeah, all of it can be talked about for hours that not happy to chat.
01:14:38.15
Matt
Yeah, now that was great. Thanks everyone for coming on the show and if people want to find out more about you and they um I assume they can find you on the internet.
01:14:48.47
Rohan
And yeah, sweaty underscore techie on the Instagram is probably the the best starting place from there. Everything's connected.
01:14:57.44
drwill
Actually um on your website is that video of you of you up on the the bike. Okay, 1 thing.
01:15:05.64
Rohan
Ah, yes, so that's riding south of France or towards the south of France no I broke it that week just riding my home trail I crashed I put my knee through.
01:15:12.97
drwill
Um I noticed was you don't have your head unit on so like.
01:15:15.80
Matt
Ah.
01:15:23.87
Rohan
The head unit and it broke the clips on the back of the head unit. So.
01:15:25.65
Matt
Classic That's a classic.
01:15:25.85
drwill
I Yeah because it's like doing software right? Performance Management consulting mobile embedded software and plus and there's like you don't even have a head unit on your bike.
01:15:35.63
Rohan
Yeah, and so that's a case of it should have been designed better. It should know that people like me are going to crash their bike constantly. Ah, and no I didn't actually I switched switched companies.
01:15:42.56
Matt
Um, yeah, but you know what they got you and you got another one didn't you ah see there you go Wow Backfired backfired I'll keep that mind.
01:15:50.74
drwill
Oh gouch. Yeah.
01:15:56.23
Rohan
That's I Also now why I tend to use the sort of just strap on elastic Band mounts and put it put it on the head you like on the top tube. So when I'm mountain biking I'm like okay I'm going to make the sacrifice that it's a little harder to see but it's harder to hit and.
01:16:01.66
drwill
I.
01:16:14.40
Rohan
If I do smack it. The rubber is going to give so doing that or I've even used the rubber bands on top of the the stem works a bit better I don't trust myself anymore. It's not that I like to crash. It's just that occasionally I throw my bike away.
01:16:16.12
drwill
Are.
01:16:23.89
Matt
But.
01:16:28.17
drwill
It happens.
01:16:30.20
Matt
Ah, those trees they jump out at you.
01:16:33.44
Rohan
Yes, indeed our back being in western Australia we've got pea gravel that's like riding on marbles and so yeah, it's so I do mountain by coaching as well. That is skills coaching just as part of being a technical person and so i. Month or two ago I did have a crash during a lesson and I was like I know that's that's not good, but actually everyone was about okay, what went wrong? How do we not do that like yeah yeah, just setting a good end example exactly.
01:16:52.27
drwill
Oh no.
01:16:58.96
drwill
Yeah, turn around this good teacher. Yeah like sir isn't that wrong you like I don't know where do you think I went wrong because I can't see it anyway. That'll do us for today. Thanks coming on.
01:17:01.48
Matt
Do what I say not as I do.
01:17:08.38
Rohan
Yeah, do you tell me that. Okay, thanks guys.
01:17:13.37
Matt
Call.
01:17:18.22
drwill
Yeah.